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Why isnt it this simple???? HELP!!!

2009-03-04 07:30:14

shutterspeed68

Registered: Mar 4 2009

Posts: 9

Answered

I simply want to create a from that my single client (not distubute to the entire planet and compile the data....blah blah blah...). I am a photographer that gets booked for gigs across the country. I need to be able to have my clients complete a registration form that also has contractual verbage in it. So, for this form to be valid as a contract, I need it to be completed by the user, and returned in an uneditable format to me. In other words, it needs to be sent back as a basic PDF.

I cannot have a convoluted process of having to require my client to register and login to Acrobat or Adobe.com for something they will likely only ever do once. It needs to be as simple for my client recipient as possible. Since most people already have the free Ac Reader, I dont think they should need anything more than this.

This is about the simplest sort of thing in principle, and I can see that many many people would require this sort of thing, and I am amazed that it does not seem possible in Acrobat 9 Pro.

I can create a from that the user can complete, but it is then sent back to me as an editable file or as xml data. Neither of which maintains any integrity of a contract, as in a dispute, it would be impossible to know who/which party changed their copy or version.

Please let me know how this can be done, or why the heck something so basic is not possible in a program that is supposed to be so universal and flexible.

I am really stuck on this. I cant find any other form products that do it.

Hmmm...Perhaps I will enlist a software developer to write such a program for me and then I can sell it...

So get on the ball Adobe!!!

Thanks in advance for anyones help...

My Product Information:
Acrobat Pro 9.0, Windows

2009-03-04 07:42:58

sbrof

Registered: Jul 2 2008

Posts: 19

Perhaps you can use the Lock Fields mechanism. If the client digitally signs the document, you can have the whole form locked after the signature. That might do what you are looking for.

You can do this in Lifecycle Designer (which comes wit Acrobat Pro). Select a signature field and chose the signature tab under the object Object Library. There are options here that allow you to lock down the fields. You can create collections to lock certain fields or just lock down everything.

2009-03-04 11:41:04

shutterspeed68

Registered: Mar 4 2009

Posts: 9

sbrof wrote:

Perhaps you can use the Lock Fields mechanism. If the client digitally signs the document, you can have the whole form locked after the signature. That might do what you are looking for.You can do this in Lifecycle Designer (which comes wit Acrobat Pro). Select a signature field and chose the signature tab under the object Object Library. There are options here that allow you to lock down the fields. You can create collections to lock certain fields or just lock down everything.

Doesnt this require the client to have a digital signature method? Remember I am dealing with mothers of brides and models...

Again...I need it to be simple for them. The way I described it is simple. I just dont understand why Acrobat does not allow this. How hard is it to simply allow the Reader program to save a from as a simple undeditable/unselectable PDF? You could even have an embedded setting where this is designated by the form creator so that the reader does not just simply create PDF's of all kinds.

I guess that is more of a suggestion/question than anything at this point.

SRM

2009-03-04 11:52:15

Dimitri

Registered: Nov 1 2005

Posts: 1389

Hi shutterspeed68,

There are a couple options. You could make the fields ReadOnly after saving it using a script in the Will Save action for the document. Or, you could put a field on the form that will show a "Last Modified" date when the form is saved as a verification of the last time the form was changed/saved.

Here is an article from the Learning Center on entering Document Action scripts-
http://www.acrobatusers.com/tutorials/2006/document_actions

Hope this helps,

Dimitri
WindJack Solutions
www.pdfscripting.com
www.windjack.com

Dimitri Munkirs
WindJack Solutions
pdfscripting.com

2009-03-04 11:58:05

shutterspeed68

Registered: Mar 4 2009

Posts: 9

sbrof wrote:

Perhaps you can use the Lock Fields mechanism. If the client digitally signs the document, you can have the whole form locked after the signature. That might do what you are looking for.You can do this in Lifecycle Designer (which comes wit Acrobat Pro). Select a signature field and chose the signature tab under the object Object Library. There are options here that allow you to lock down the fields. You can create collections to lock certain fields or just lock down everything.

I also do not see the options you mention. I have the signature field highlighted, and I see no options for locking down fields or collections of fields.

Beyond this, will this send a complete copy of the entire document? ...r just the xml data version?

2009-03-04 12:18:53

gkaiseril

Registered: Feb 23 2006

Posts: 4307

If you are in LiveCycle Designer, select the field, select the "Object" Window tag, and then select the "Document Signature" tab.

If your client has only Reader, your client will not be able to digitally sign the form unless you use the LiveCycle Server to enable the signature rights. And your user will need to get a digital certificate.

George Kaiser

2009-03-04 20:53:15

shutterspeed68

Registered: Mar 4 2009

Posts: 9

Ok all...

This is my point. Why isnt this simple? It is such a simple concept. Not that hard to implement. It should be common sense.

Is anyone here connected to the developer team? This needs to happen. I only say so because I am sure I am not the only with this need...just the only one who tries to address it.

The thing here is that it needs to be easy and seemless for the recipient. In this case, it is not easy for either party.

Let us remember that the whole point of technology is to make things faster and more efficient. In this case, this is far from true.

SRM

2009-03-05 11:28:24

Dimitri

Registered: Nov 1 2005

Posts: 1389

Hi shutterspeed68,

You can make this simple for your client, and several ideas on how to do so have been suggested. Technology does make things faster and more efficient for people- how long ago was it that you would not have had a forum such as this to submit your complaints to? The main problem seems to be that making it easy for your client is NOT easy for you. That's a pretty big rub for most software. There is only so much you can do from the User Interface- lots of the really useful/great capability and features require many hours of learning new skills and/or some programming on your part. I know sometimes that makes people pretty mad since they feel they have already paid a high price for the software, but that is the reality of the situation.

This is a user to user forum, hence the site's name "acrobatusers." Occasionally someone from Adobe stops by and posts, but they have no job obligation to do so that I know of. To speak with an Adobe developer you will need to contact Adobe directly.

Hope this helps,

Dimitri
WindJack Solutions
www.windjack.com
www.pdfscripting.com

Dimitri Munkirs
WindJack Solutions
pdfscripting.com

2009-03-05 17:28:06

daka630

Registered: Mar 1 2007

Posts: 1420

Quote:

gets booked for gigs across the country.

For the moment, consider it a given that you have your desired PDF document.
(I'd hazard a guess that paying a developer for the product would pay for itself in a
reasonable timeframe.)

On the face of it you obtain your desired "contract" with a client; but is it in fact acceptable in the legal venue that has jurisdiction?

That issue may not be a given (?).
Just a "Discuss with your legal professional" consideration .Be well...

Be well...

2009-03-11 02:11:58

richard321

Registered: Mar 10 2009

Posts: 20

I completely understand this member's frustration. This simple task should be so fundamental to form provision - to allow an ordinary user (ie someone not using digital signatures & accessing a pdf with Reader) to be able to complete an online form, lock it from further editing & return it electronically.Isn't that a widespread requirement & shouldn't it be so simple to do? Yet it doesn't seem possible. The nearest is to enable Reader usage rights but that doesn't prevent further editing of the form.

2009-03-11 06:53:05

#10

gkaiseril

Registered: Feb 23 2006

Posts: 4307

Electronic signatures are not that new and not the widespread.

The vast majority of electronic signatures are used outside of Acrobat forms in commerce. The largest governmental use of electronic signatures in the U.S. is for electronically signing income tax forms and the IRS and most states require a manually signed form besides the electronic signature. The IRS was using electronic signatures before the change in the UCC and adoption of an electronic signature standard and that is only about 20 years.

This is also the model that Adobe has setup for the use of electronic signatures on their forms.

George Kaiser

2009-03-11 08:16:17

#11

richard321

Registered: Mar 10 2009

Posts: 20

HDana wrote:

So I believe the question is, what has Adobe done to make this process simple for the rest of the world that is not ready to accept digital signatures?

Absolutely agree that this question should be addressed. The forms I am creating are for use in UK Home Information Packs which increasingly will be compiled online & ordinary homeowners with web access (70% & counting) need to be able to rapidly get these forms back to their Pack compilers. They certainly are not going to be the sort of people who regularly use a digital signature & no way can they be asked to create one just for this. Unlike the concern of the original poster, in my case it's not so much the contractual thing as the assurance that, if another party (eg a potential buyer of the home) sees that the form is editable after completion by the seller, it will raise queries as to its legitimacy.Can anyone say whether or not there are real technical issues around providing the facility for a Reader user to be able to lock the form fields to prevent further editing? If there are, fair enough, but if there are not, then surely it should be absolutely standard to be able to do it.

2009-03-11 08:42:18

#12

richard321

Registered: Mar 10 2009

Posts: 20

HDana wrote:

Quote:

Can anyone say whether or not there are real technical issues around providing the facility for a Reader user to be able to lock the form fields to prevent further editing? If there are, fair enough, but if there are not, then surely it should be absolutely standard to be able to do it.

I believe the designer would have to provide a way for the form to be locked either through a digital signature field or through an action (with the code I provided above)...but there is no simple GUI method to implement for the latter in either Acrobat or LiveCycle.

Which is where I get lost as I don't do code, I just use the software ;-)
Also I'm not using the Submit button since this seems to only send the data, not the form itself & also, I find anyone with more than one email account gets ever so confused if a submit by email button goes to the wrong one.
Wish list to Adobe then?

2009-03-11 09:48:53

#13

richard321

Registered: Mar 10 2009

Posts: 20

HDana wrote:

richard321 wrote:

Also I'm not using the Submit button since this seems to only send the data, not the form itself...

Yes and No.

If creating a submit button in Acrobat, it does.

If creating a submit button in LiveCycle, you need to specify the format. Since you want the full PDF emailed back to you, you DO NOT want to use the email submit button, since you cannot specify the "submit as" format (for some stupid reason). What you want is a regular button. In the Object palette on the Field tab, choose Submit as your Control Type. On the Submit tab in the Submit to URL add "mailto:" followed by your email address, followed by "?subject=" if you want to add a default subject to the email. So a Submit to URL might look like:

mailto:<span class="spamspan"><span class="u">myemail</span> [at] <span class="d">somewhere [dot] com</span></span>?subject=Application Submission

To lock the fields when the form is submitted, add the code I provided above on the preSubmit event on the button. The code doesn't have to be on the preSubmit event of the button, it can be on any field element on the form, as long as you have it on a preSubmit event, it will work.

There's more than one way to skin a...PDF ;)

Heather, many thanks for that advice which sounds like it would be great but...I have a problem (don't we all sometimes). The email isn't always going back to the same person. It's being sent by a homeowner to someone who is using our system for compiling these Packs, but it might be any one of dozens (hopefully, thousands) of people (typically real estate conveyancing lawyers) using the compilation service we provide. As I can't put their own email address in the submit button on the generic form, I don't think I can use your suggestion can I? Unless maybe I can have a blank field for the submit button, into which the client puts the return email address? I'll have a look at that tomorrow.

Thanks again.

2009-03-13 10:51:14

#14

lpacini

Registered: Mar 13 2009

Posts: 29

This has been a great thread, except that I keep getting lost. As Technology Coordinator for a small private school with a commitment to "green" I have the responsibility of converting all of our paper forms to digital ones so that our families can access them on our Website, complete them and submit them. Some, like our medical informaiton form, is contractual in nature, the logical solution seemed to be digital signatures. Enter Acrobat 9 Pro Extended.

In no time at all I had the first form converted (great wizard) and opened it in Reader. Can't save it; can't send it; can'r sign it. What good is that? I am assuming I have missed a setting somewhere. As for LifeCycle Designer, I cannot even find that!

2009-03-13 11:07:40

#15

lpacini

Registered: Mar 13 2009

Posts: 29

I never got past security setting on that tab!!! Thank you, a million times! Works like a million dollars! Now will users be prompted to create an ID as I was in 9 Pro? And lastly (I hope and pray) can they directly submit by email or save and attach?

2009-03-13 11:25:00

#16

lpacini

Registered: Mar 13 2009

Posts: 29

Thanks again! Somewhere I am supposed to say that your help was wonderful! fantastic! fabulous! Well it wasn't - it was much better than that!!! I didn't have a grey hair in my head when I got up this morning, and you should see me now!!!!!

2009-03-13 12:07:16

#17

gkaiseril

Registered: Feb 23 2006

Posts: 4307

Extended form rights will not allow users with Reader sign forms. This feature will require the use of a LiveCycle Server product to enable signature rights.

George Kaiser

2009-03-13 15:10:23

#18

lpacini

Registered: Mar 13 2009

Posts: 29

Gee... Maybe, but it sure is working for me! I created the form in Acrobat 9 Pro Extended; emailed it to another machine and opened it with Reader 9.1. Seems to work just fine! No problem signing the form at all! Am I missing something here?

2009-03-16 03:40:53

#19

richard321

Registered: Mar 10 2009

Posts: 20

HDana wrote:

I got the submit button in fine, without a return email address.
This is where I really show my ignorance:
Please can you say where & how I get the code (to lock the fields) into the form? I can view the code in the XML Source tab but haven't a clue which bit to put it in.Thanks again. But this really ought not to be stuff that ignoramuses like me have to do. Surely it's such a standard thing to want from a form?

2009-10-21 07:43:17

#20

web_wolf

Registered: Jan 24 2008

Posts: 39

richard321 wrote:

Please can you say where & how I get the code (to lock the fields) into the form? I can view the code in the XML Source tab but haven't a clue which bit to put it in.

Richard, were you ever able to figure this out? Sorry, I lost my subscription to this topic when I was forced to create a new ID (previously hdana).

What you want to do is open the Script Editor window in LiveCycle. Show the preSubmit event. Select JavaScript as your language (drop-down on the right). Then copy the lock fields code I provided, and paste it into the Script Editor window.

Website Designer - Lititz, PA

2009-10-21 08:48:34

#21

richard321

Registered: Mar 10 2009

Posts: 20

Hi Heather
Well that was a nice surprise after all this time!
To be honest I gave up on that project, not because of the form stuff but for other reasons. We eventually did the form without being secure but it's no longer an issue. Especially if our government changes next year (another story)

However....
I have created another form in a totally different scenario for requesting feedback but have been getting the data coming back as xml files which is a pain; I wanted pdfs like I had on the other form, but I had forgotten how to do that. Revisiting this topic has reminded me that you can't use the submit by email button (how daft is that) & I went through your directions & that has worked brilliantly. So a big thank you for solving a problem you didn't know I had!But I thought I'd now put in the locking code as you have kindly described how to do so. It went in so far as I know but when I did a test submission to myself & opened the form I find I can edit it; it doesn't seem to be locked. To be honest I'm not worried about it in this new scenario as it is only me using the data & it's not sensitive to editing. But sadly the code didn't seem to do what it should. Unless I'm missing something, which is highly likely.
Thanks again anyway :)

2009-10-21 10:16:04

#22

web_wolf

Registered: Jan 24 2008

Posts: 39

WHOOPS! The code must be applied to the preSubmit event in order to execute on submit. Within the Script Editor, click on the drop-down next to "Show:" and select the preSubmit event. Paste the code there.

Website Designer - Lititz, PA

2009-10-21 10:26:09

#23

gkaiseril

Registered: Feb 23 2006

Posts: 4307

One has to deal with various products and versions with all sorts of changes. If you have users with version 4 Acrobat/Reader they may not be able to process forms created with LiveCycle Designer. Then there are different security restrictions based on the version of PDF viewer and if you are going to distribute forms with special print and save buttons, you may need to code for all possibilities. This is alot like trying to open a MS Office 2007 docx file with Office 97.

George Kaiser

2009-10-21 10:30:51

#24

web_wolf

Registered: Jan 24 2008

Posts: 39

If you have Reader 7 or earlier, a message will pop-up when you open a fillable form telling you that it contains scripting and may not work properly due to your version of Reader. Since this is just a simple submit button, I would expect it to work, but I also expect people to keep their computers up to date, especially when the reader is free. For my forms, since I'm filling fields programmatically, I will not let them see the form if it hasn't loaded properly, forcing them to upgrade.

Website Designer - Lititz, PA

2009-10-21 10:55:27

#25

richard321

Registered: Mar 10 2009

Posts: 20

Once again Heather, many thanks, I did it like you said & it worked a treat.
The issues relating to people who have older versions of Reader are a pain aren't they. In the email I send with my feedback form I tell them it needs the latest version & give them the appropriate link. That's fine for individuals but I guess it's not helpful if a corporate doesn't keep updated.
I wouldn't force people to upgrade Reader myself (even if I knew how), as my feedback form is optional & I'm only getting about 25% return anyway!