I use Acrobat 9 pro extended (which include includes Presenter). If you want to keep presenter, and get office 2010 integration, you need to upgrade to acrobat X pro suite for $800. This seems to me to be very unethical on Adobe's part. Why can't they offer an upgrade that is truly an upgrade for a reasonable price? The upgrade to Acrobat X pro gives you a few new features but also takes away features (which you then pay exorbitant amounts to get back).
I went online with the liveperson system and specifically asked if this was the situation. See my log below:
Ken: If I upgrade my version 9 pro extended to X Pro, it looks like I lose a lot of functionality - like "presenter" .... for example. What else do I lose when I "upgrade". I need Office 2010 integration but I guess I need to lose a lot to get that?
....
Ken: ...So it looks like it will cost me $800 just to get office 2010 integration?
[name removed]: Yes, you are correct.
Ken: Do you think Adobe will realize this is a little ridiculous and come out with a more reasonable upgrade price? Just because you use acrobat doesn't mean you want photoshop!
[name removed]: I will make a note of it.
I just find it shocking they expect to charge $800 for office 2010 integration (more than Office 2010 cost!). I am alone here?
Ken
$800 for Office 2010 integration ??
2011-02-03 17:32:12
My Product Information:
Acrobat Pro Extended 9.4, Windows
Acrobat Pro Extended 9.4, Windows
2011-02-03 21:50:57
#2
Since Acrobat 9 Pro Extended is a discontinued product there is no defined upgrade path for customers who are not on an Upgrade Plan. The prices indicated for upgrade to Acrobat X Suite are therefore the same for any previous Acrobat Professional user. Pro Extended customers with a subscription-based Upgrade Plan receive free copies of Acrobat X Suite as 1:1 replacements, but this terminates renewal of the Upgrade Plan.Pro Extended was something of an experiment for the Acrobat product line, and it was not considered viable to pursue, for a number of reasons. Acrobat X Suite is aimed at a different customer base, whose interests are in creative content delivery for workplace presentations and training rather than technical output. It was felt that the high-end creation engines for geospatial and 3D documents were better handled by the industry sectors concerned, who have access to the ever-changing codecs and conversion libraries required to keep pace with customer needs (one of the major complaints about 3D in Pro Extended was lack of support for new file types and versions).
Acrobat X Suite includes Adobe Presenter, Acrobat X Pro, LiveCycle Designer ES2, Photoshop CS5, Captivate 5 and Adobe Media Encoder CS5. As neither Captivate, Photoshop nor AME were in Acrobat 9 Pro Extended, they incur an obvious cost when upgrading. You may not want them all, and you may have copies already, but they're in the SKU so you have to pay for them. Adobe has the right to format their products how they wish, based on market demand, but there will always be customers who prefer something different and there's not a lot we can do about it.
Legacy media (audio and video in non-Flash format) cannot be authored in Acrobat X Family products, but if you have PDFs containing legacy media they can be played, once the trust settings have been changed. Acrobat X Pro will embed Flash video (FLV) and any H.264 format video (MP4, F4V, etc.) so if you have original media in another format such as MPEG or AVI, you must transcode it using Adobe Media Encoder (or another third-party tool) before you'll be able to embed it. Removing legacy media was a security decision, so there's no workaround.
The primary losses from Acrobat 9 Pro Extended to Acrobat X Suite include:
- No ability to author geospatial PDF files (now devolved to GIS software vendors).
- 3D PDF creation supports only PRC and U3D model types (conversion engine is now sold by another company)
- 3D Reviewer is removed (now sold by another company).
- Legacy multimedia creation is removed.
- Microsoft Office XP support removed (aka Office 2002).
- Internet Explorer 6 support removed.
- AutoCAD support from 2005 to 2007 removed, support for 2008 to 2010 (32-bit) added.
- Lotus Notes 6 support removed.
- Various UI changes (removal of Organizer, etc.)
Acrobat X Suite adds:
- Full Windows 7 support.
- New user interface.
- New Flex 4 PDF Portfolios.
- Microsoft Office 2010 (32-bit) support.
- Full versions of Captivate and Photoshop.
- Export to spreadsheet.
- Improved intelligent scanning.
- Integration with Sharepoint.
- PDF/A-2 and PDF/E support.
- PAdES support.
- Almost unlimited transcoding of video using Adobe Media Encoder (which does far more than Pro Extended did)
As to whether that's worth $799 - I can't say. To some it is, to some it isn't.
Acrobat X Suite includes Adobe Presenter, Acrobat X Pro, LiveCycle Designer ES2, Photoshop CS5, Captivate 5 and Adobe Media Encoder CS5. As neither Captivate, Photoshop nor AME were in Acrobat 9 Pro Extended, they incur an obvious cost when upgrading. You may not want them all, and you may have copies already, but they're in the SKU so you have to pay for them. Adobe has the right to format their products how they wish, based on market demand, but there will always be customers who prefer something different and there's not a lot we can do about it.
Legacy media (audio and video in non-Flash format) cannot be authored in Acrobat X Family products, but if you have PDFs containing legacy media they can be played, once the trust settings have been changed. Acrobat X Pro will embed Flash video (FLV) and any H.264 format video (MP4, F4V, etc.) so if you have original media in another format such as MPEG or AVI, you must transcode it using Adobe Media Encoder (or another third-party tool) before you'll be able to embed it. Removing legacy media was a security decision, so there's no workaround.
The primary losses from Acrobat 9 Pro Extended to Acrobat X Suite include:
- No ability to author geospatial PDF files (now devolved to GIS software vendors).
- 3D PDF creation supports only PRC and U3D model types (conversion engine is now sold by another company)
- 3D Reviewer is removed (now sold by another company).
- Legacy multimedia creation is removed.
- Microsoft Office XP support removed (aka Office 2002).
- Internet Explorer 6 support removed.
- AutoCAD support from 2005 to 2007 removed, support for 2008 to 2010 (32-bit) added.
- Lotus Notes 6 support removed.
- Various UI changes (removal of Organizer, etc.)
Acrobat X Suite adds:
- Full Windows 7 support.
- New user interface.
- New Flex 4 PDF Portfolios.
- Microsoft Office 2010 (32-bit) support.
- Full versions of Captivate and Photoshop.
- Export to spreadsheet.
- Improved intelligent scanning.
- Integration with Sharepoint.
- PDF/A-2 and PDF/E support.
- PAdES support.
- Almost unlimited transcoding of video using Adobe Media Encoder (which does far more than Pro Extended did)
As to whether that's worth $799 - I can't say. To some it is, to some it isn't.
2011-02-04 10:53:06
#3
All very intersting, however at the end of it all the situation is still:
Adobe has historically provided an upgrade path through its Acrobat products that are:
a) around $200 each
b) give you the same functionality of the previous version
c) give you some added new functionality
d) let you continue to work with documents you created in the previous version
Now, the approach is
a) upgrade for $200
b) lose significant functionality from the previous version
c) you can't edit all the documents from the previous version (ie with embedded vdeo)
d) you still get some new functionality
or
a) pay $800 to get the right to use the functionality you bought in the previous release
b) get some new functionality.
Because you can't edit your old documents (the ones you convinced us to create in your marketing campaigns for Acrobat 9), we have no choice but to pay $800 to keep access to our old documents. I have no interest in photoshop so it will become expensive shelf-ware.
So in summary - a standard upgrade that previously cost us $200 now costs $800 - regardless of how they want to package it - that is how it affects an Adobe Acrobat user.
Based on this philosophy what happens if Adobe releases version 11 and gives you the option of
a) upgrade for $200 (and say lose the ability to edit Adobe X documents)
or
b) upgrade for (e.g.) $1,000 and retain the ability to edit Adobe X documents.
It seems Adobe knows that they have a captive audience in the people that purchased and used Adobe 9 and they are now taking advantage of them.
It is horribly unethical that Adobe feels they can add new features in one release (and promote them extensively), and then charge exorbitant fees to let you continue to use them in the next release.
Adobe has historically provided an upgrade path through its Acrobat products that are:
a) around $200 each
b) give you the same functionality of the previous version
c) give you some added new functionality
d) let you continue to work with documents you created in the previous version
Now, the approach is
a) upgrade for $200
b) lose significant functionality from the previous version
c) you can't edit all the documents from the previous version (ie with embedded vdeo)
d) you still get some new functionality
or
a) pay $800 to get the right to use the functionality you bought in the previous release
b) get some new functionality.
Because you can't edit your old documents (the ones you convinced us to create in your marketing campaigns for Acrobat 9), we have no choice but to pay $800 to keep access to our old documents. I have no interest in photoshop so it will become expensive shelf-ware.
So in summary - a standard upgrade that previously cost us $200 now costs $800 - regardless of how they want to package it - that is how it affects an Adobe Acrobat user.
Based on this philosophy what happens if Adobe releases version 11 and gives you the option of
a) upgrade for $200 (and say lose the ability to edit Adobe X documents)
or
b) upgrade for (e.g.) $1,000 and retain the ability to edit Adobe X documents.
It seems Adobe knows that they have a captive audience in the people that purchased and used Adobe 9 and they are now taking advantage of them.
It is horribly unethical that Adobe feels they can add new features in one release (and promote them extensively), and then charge exorbitant fees to let you continue to use them in the next release.
2011-02-04 11:07:27
#4
Looks like Adobe has been following Microsoft's and Apple's lead.
Look at all the additional software you are getting with the Suite. If you had not noticed, this was also done with PhotoShop and Creative Suite.
There have been very few challengers to the PDF format. Novel had a product called Tumbleweed, but one does not hear much about Novell. Also the market tends to use single sourced products only.
Look at all the additional software you are getting with the Suite. If you had not noticed, this was also done with PhotoShop and Creative Suite.
There have been very few challengers to the PDF format. Novel had a product called Tumbleweed, but one does not hear much about Novell. Also the market tends to use single sourced products only.
2011-02-04 11:19:15
#5
Yes - there is a lot of software in the suite - and Adobe wants to force you to buy it whether you want it or not :-(
I've always held Adobe in pretty high regard, and even sided with them in the Adobe vs Apple debate last year, but unfortunately this last move is causing me to rethink my convictions. Given that there isn't any really good competition out there, you don't have a lot of options though.
I've always held Adobe in pretty high regard, and even sided with them in the Adobe vs Apple debate last year, but unfortunately this last move is causing me to rethink my convictions. Given that there isn't any really good competition out there, you don't have a lot of options though.
2011-02-05 15:39:52
#6
.
2011-02-06 02:37:40
#7
The critical thing to remember is that Acrobat 9 Pro Extended (APEX9) has been discontinued. That means there is no upgrade path - the discount on Acrobat X Pro is available to reflect the customer's investment in APEX but Adobe have taken a business decision that APEX is not a commercially-viable product variant, and have dropped it. In effect therefore, APEX9 is "the current version" of APEX. Acrobat X Pro is the current version of Acrobat Pro. Subtle but very important difference.I fully understand that some documents created in Acrobat 9 cannot be directly edited in Acrobat X, but Adobe have made as much possible as they can given the security model and core code changes. Authoring legacy media has been removed because it was being used to distributed viruses, but you can still view files containing it, and edit them - it's only the legacy media annotations you can't fiddle with. Acrobat 9 PDF Portfolios cannot be edited in Acrobat X because the framework they're built upon is totally different (Flex 3 vs Flex 4), but Adobe have included additional code so that you can still add and remove files using drag/drop even though you can't edit the layout, and Acrobat X understands how to upscale the layout to an Acrobat X version if you wish to make deeper changes. You can't expect Acrobat to retain all the code libraries from previous versions just in case there's an old file someone needs to edit, and at the same time deal with all the people who are complaining the install footprint is too large!
Adobe's decision to move to Suite, and what Suite contains, is based on customer feedback and very extensive usage monitoring. Adobe knows exactly which features are being used and how often, thanks to the product improvement program. People very high up the food chain have chosen what to sell and for how much, and so far I'm not seeing major complaints from the target customer base. Naturally if a product is aimed at a target, people outside that target can feel they're not getting exactly what they want - but that's life. One day we might have a pick-and-mix bundle system for digital purchases, but not any time soon as it'd cause chaos among the resellers.
Adobe's decision to move to Suite, and what Suite contains, is based on customer feedback and very extensive usage monitoring. Adobe knows exactly which features are being used and how often, thanks to the product improvement program. People very high up the food chain have chosen what to sell and for how much, and so far I'm not seeing major complaints from the target customer base. Naturally if a product is aimed at a target, people outside that target can feel they're not getting exactly what they want - but that's life. One day we might have a pick-and-mix bundle system for digital purchases, but not any time soon as it'd cause chaos among the resellers.
2011-02-06 09:21:49
#8
So there was a security problem with including it in 9 pro extended, but no security problem in charging an extra $600 to include it in X?
With presenter, it was included in 9 pro extended, came with all sorts of material encouraging users to adopt it, and now I see we can continue to use it by purchasing it separately for $500 (or through the suite for an extra $600). If Adobe's strategy was to remove products that weren't being used, why would they assume that this product could then be sold separately at a much higher price?
I'm confused a bit by the comments that there isn't an upgrade path because APEX was discontinued. Only a short while ago APEX was being agressively sold by Adobe. Now it's discontinued - and Adobe isn't offering an upgrade path? On the other hand, when I go to the website and look at X, it lists all sorts of clearly labelled "Upgrade Options" from many of the previous releases of Acrobat to take you up to Acrobat X. The Adobe website clearly indicates that there is an upgrade path.
It sounds like the safest approach with acrobat is to never use any new features in release X, because they might drop them in the next release(or charge you a significant price if you wish to keep using them). When I upgraded to 9, I don't recall the software coming with any warning that the new features they were marketing so hard, might be dropped only months later. I suspect it was there but burried somewhere in the licensing contract. I believe it was less than 6 months ago that Adobe was still promoting APEX. At that time I suspect they new they were going to change the model for X. Did they warn new purchasers of 9 not to use the presenter and media features because they were going to be removed - or even that there would be no economical upgrade path for them?
Perhaps with new features, Adobe could provide some sort of guarantee ("We promise to support this feature for at least 6 months, or this feature for at least 5 releases" etc) As it is, in corporate settings (such as the ones for my clients), I may have to start recommending against using any new Acrobat features. This would be unfortunate, but my clients need vendors that they can trust will continue to support their products. My clients set their budgets based on an expectation that they are gaining features - not losing them.
Let's consider the following situation (which may or may not be hypothetical). This is a slightly different situation - but is still caused by the new pricing approach. I just acquired a new client who in 2010 evaluated APEX and was impressed with the features included in 9. They were about to upgrade(exact number is confidential but let's use this rounded number to illustrate the point) 500 copies. It was suggested they hold off to X so as to not need to do a second rollout. These were an upgrade from an older version and budget was set at approximately $100,000 (there may have been a better negotiated price, but the concept holds). Now the new price for that functionality becomes $400,000. To say they were disappointed would be an understatement.
I can understand that certain "legacy" features that aren't being used, or relate to integration with other vendors discontinued products get dropped. But to introduce and strongly promote a new feature in one release (and advertise that we "have to buy it because it is so powerful and will revolutionize the way we do business") and then drop it in the very next release - highly unethical.
I'm sure that Adobe makes its product bundling decisions based on their models to maximize profitability, but part of the annyance is that our discussions with them have indicated a dramatic lack of willingness to even consider to impact on customers who are adversely affected by this.
With presenter, it was included in 9 pro extended, came with all sorts of material encouraging users to adopt it, and now I see we can continue to use it by purchasing it separately for $500 (or through the suite for an extra $600). If Adobe's strategy was to remove products that weren't being used, why would they assume that this product could then be sold separately at a much higher price?
I'm confused a bit by the comments that there isn't an upgrade path because APEX was discontinued. Only a short while ago APEX was being agressively sold by Adobe. Now it's discontinued - and Adobe isn't offering an upgrade path? On the other hand, when I go to the website and look at X, it lists all sorts of clearly labelled "Upgrade Options" from many of the previous releases of Acrobat to take you up to Acrobat X. The Adobe website clearly indicates that there is an upgrade path.
It sounds like the safest approach with acrobat is to never use any new features in release X, because they might drop them in the next release(or charge you a significant price if you wish to keep using them). When I upgraded to 9, I don't recall the software coming with any warning that the new features they were marketing so hard, might be dropped only months later. I suspect it was there but burried somewhere in the licensing contract. I believe it was less than 6 months ago that Adobe was still promoting APEX. At that time I suspect they new they were going to change the model for X. Did they warn new purchasers of 9 not to use the presenter and media features because they were going to be removed - or even that there would be no economical upgrade path for them?
Perhaps with new features, Adobe could provide some sort of guarantee ("We promise to support this feature for at least 6 months, or this feature for at least 5 releases" etc) As it is, in corporate settings (such as the ones for my clients), I may have to start recommending against using any new Acrobat features. This would be unfortunate, but my clients need vendors that they can trust will continue to support their products. My clients set their budgets based on an expectation that they are gaining features - not losing them.
Let's consider the following situation (which may or may not be hypothetical). This is a slightly different situation - but is still caused by the new pricing approach. I just acquired a new client who in 2010 evaluated APEX and was impressed with the features included in 9. They were about to upgrade(exact number is confidential but let's use this rounded number to illustrate the point) 500 copies. It was suggested they hold off to X so as to not need to do a second rollout. These were an upgrade from an older version and budget was set at approximately $100,000 (there may have been a better negotiated price, but the concept holds). Now the new price for that functionality becomes $400,000. To say they were disappointed would be an understatement.
I can understand that certain "legacy" features that aren't being used, or relate to integration with other vendors discontinued products get dropped. But to introduce and strongly promote a new feature in one release (and advertise that we "have to buy it because it is so powerful and will revolutionize the way we do business") and then drop it in the very next release - highly unethical.
I'm sure that Adobe makes its product bundling decisions based on their models to maximize profitability, but part of the annyance is that our discussions with them have indicated a dramatic lack of willingness to even consider to impact on customers who are adversely affected by this.
2011-02-06 09:49:06
#9
So there was a security problem with including it in 9 pro extended, but no security problem in charging an extra $600 to include it in X?
Legacy media creation is not available in the Acrobat X Family, period. Acrobat X Suite allows you to convert other media into Flash format using Adobe Media Encoder so it can be embedded as a Flash RMA - that is the only option.With presenter, it was included in 9 pro extended, came with all sorts of material encouraging users to adopt it, and now I see we can continue to use it by purchasing it separately for $500 (or through the suite for an extra $600). If Adobe's strategy was to remove products that weren't being used, why would they assume that this product could then be sold separately at a much higher price?
Adobe Presenter is a discrete product line and always has been. As such the point product price and availability are unrelated to Acrobat. It's actually a tool to create content for Adobe Connect, so its presence in APEX was somewhat strange. It's in Suite to supplement the features of Adobe Captivate for creating eLearning materials, but it doesn't have a great deal of connection to Acrobat other than that you can embed a Presenter SWF file into a PDF (as you can any other).Sometimes people ask for something when it's not there, but after it's offered, don't use it. *Very* few Presenter files ever end up as PDFs, most go to Connect servers or get uploaded to websites as SWFs.
I'm confused a bit by the comments that there isn't an upgrade path because APEX was discontinued.
See this link for confirmation of what I said in my last reply. There is NO upgrade. There is a *discount* on purchases of Acrobat X Pro, but that is not the same thing.
2011-02-06 10:08:54
#10
I'm confused a bit by the comments that there isn't an upgrade path because APEX was discontinued.
See this link for confirmation of what I said in my last reply. There is NO upgrade. There is a *discount* on purchases of Acrobat X Pro, but that is not the same thing.[/quote]==========================================================I seem to be missing something here. Sorry - I followed the link and then clicked on "I own a previous version of Acrobat. Am I eligible for an upgrade to Acrobat X". That link suggested the link "Acrobat X buying guide". That link in turn took me a page titled "Acrobat X Pro / Upgrade Guide". This page has the word "upgrade" on it 7 times (but never "discount") and lists all the different "Upgrade" (their word) prices based on the product you are "upgrading" from. It also describes X as the latest "version" as opposed to a whole new product.
Is there somewhere else on that link you provided that I missed?
2011-02-06 10:24:11
#11
You seem to know a great deal about what is and isn't in the different versions. I just noticed in an earlier post you said that Suite added:
- PDF/A-2 and PDF/E support.
- PAdES support
I don't know a lot about these but I was using PDF/A for all documents where I was legally mandated to maintain them for long periods of time (which is most of what I do - I have roughly 15,000 PDF/A documents). What does it mean that PDF/A-2 is included in suite? I assume that is different than PDF/A? Will all my PDF/A documents created under APEX still be fully accessible under X Pro?; will I be able to create more PDF/A documents under X Pro? Could you please elaborate a bit more for me on what I have and don't have with regards to /A??
Thanks
- PDF/A-2 and PDF/E support.
- PAdES support
I don't know a lot about these but I was using PDF/A for all documents where I was legally mandated to maintain them for long periods of time (which is most of what I do - I have roughly 15,000 PDF/A documents). What does it mean that PDF/A-2 is included in suite? I assume that is different than PDF/A? Will all my PDF/A documents created under APEX still be fully accessible under X Pro?; will I be able to create more PDF/A documents under X Pro? Could you please elaborate a bit more for me on what I have and don't have with regards to /A??
Thanks
2011-02-06 11:43:31
#12
Quoting from the URI's below -
A new part to the standard, ISO 19005-1, Part-2 (PDF/A-2), is currently being worked on by the Technical Committee.
PDF/A-2 will address some of the new feature added with versions 1.5, 1.6 and 1.7 of the PDF Reference.
PDF/A-2 should be backwards compatible, i.e. all valid PDF/A-1 documents should also be compliant with PDF/A-2.
However PDF/A-2 compliant files will not necessarily be PDF/A-1 compliant
.
.
ISO 19005-1, Part-2 (PDF/A-2) which will be based upon ISO 32000-1 (ISO PDF) as well as ISO 19005-3 which will address electronic documents containing dynamic media (movies, sounds, 3D, etc).
.
.
http://pdf.editme.com/PDFA
.
.
http://www.pdfa.org/doku.php?id=pdfa:en:pdfa_whitepaper
.
.
http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=50655
A new part to the standard, ISO 19005-1, Part-2 (PDF/A-2), is currently being worked on by the Technical Committee.
PDF/A-2 will address some of the new feature added with versions 1.5, 1.6 and 1.7 of the PDF Reference.
PDF/A-2 should be backwards compatible, i.e. all valid PDF/A-1 documents should also be compliant with PDF/A-2.
However PDF/A-2 compliant files will not necessarily be PDF/A-1 compliant
.
.
ISO 19005-1, Part-2 (PDF/A-2) which will be based upon ISO 32000-1 (ISO PDF) as well as ISO 19005-3 which will address electronic documents containing dynamic media (movies, sounds, 3D, etc).
.
.
http://pdf.editme.com/PDFA
.
.
http://www.pdfa.org/doku.php?id=pdfa:en:pdfa_whitepaper
.
.
http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=50655
2011-02-06 13:35:07
#13
With reference to the FAQ link - read the sections titled "What do I replace Acrobat Pro Extended with if I’m looking for next-generation capabilities?" and "I have a license for Acrobat 9 Pro Extended. Am I eligible for an upgrade to a product in the Acrobat X family?", which describe the options available and clearly state the end-of-lifetime policy.The purchasing pages refer to any concession from previous products as "upgrade", as opposed to "retail". There are fundamental differences between a true upgrade and a discount, as detailed in the "I have a license..." section of the FAQ.
daka630 has given the links to PDF/A-2, and in respect to PAdES signatures please see this link for an overview of the standard, and this link for details of which aspects are supported in the Acrobat X Family.
daka630 has given the links to PDF/A-2, and in respect to PAdES signatures please see this link for an overview of the standard, and this link for details of which aspects are supported in the Acrobat X Family.
Under 9 pro extended I created a lot of documents which embedded a variety of different video types. I notice that this capability is now shown as a feature in the X Pro Suite (but not the X Pro feature list). Does that mean that documents I created in 9 pro extended (embedding the multiple different video types) will not be editable using X Pro?